Namaste.
As i see it, Wundermunks question is:
If only born-Indian Hindus can belong to the varna system, and all people of Indian ancestry are killed, how can any future people be born into a varna?
So far I've seen dancing around but not a direct answer.
The term "mlechha" itself curiously is not found in the Vedas, and was used later to describe someone who didn't follow the Vedas, which would include people who claim to be Hindu but don't follow the Vedas. It was not intended to be a blanket term to describe all races of earth who don't happen to be born on the Indian subcontinent.
If you want to be racist, just admit it, don't use scripture to justify it.
Finally, I may be biased since according to the definition being bandied about here I am a mlechha, but to be honest I'd much rather be a mlechha and be punished by my access to clean water, hygienic supplies, plenty of food, clean air, a job, and a nice place to live than be rewarded by being starving and oppressed in India. But then again, at least I could say I was a Brahmin!
I used to wonder why people in India would convert to Islam or Christianity, but if the majority of the dvijas hold this kind of attitude suddenly it makes sense.
Aum Namah Shivaya
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Reality must always be real. It is not with forms and names. That which underlies these is the reality. It underlies limitations, being itself limitless. It is not bound. It underlies unrealities, itself being real. Reality is that which is. It is as it is. It transcends speech. It is beyond the expressions 'existence, non-existence', etc." ~Sri Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi~
namsate,
Last post on this topic (for a while).
Varna is by birth otherwise you are saying that birth happens at random and thus you are denying the existence of law of karma that is in effect, existence of parkriti and influence of guna and by denying that you are also implying that there is no reincarnation. Thus essentially this leads us to maleccha theories of one life, one external God who does things randomly, illogically.
Now someone here gave examples of some people who were born into certain varna but fell short of that. So? It happens everyday, all the time. What's new there? Varna by birth doesn't guarantee that the person 'will' perform the perscribed duties. This is why hindusim is not fatalism i.e. our destiny is not pre-written. So yeah, go ahead and don't perform your perscribed duties, no problem. Law of karma will take care of you in future and based on what you did you will be in an approrpriate womb.
Those outside of varnasram that are performing dharmic duties even with their current sudra or even worse Maleccha birth, will in future get the appropriate womb, again law of karma is in effect.
But perhaps God, law of karma, reincarnation all these things are nonsense in this hypothetical scenario?
satay
Namaste,What a horrible choice to make - you would give up being born a Brahmin in India, to getting some clean water/air, food and some toilet paper (hygienic supplies)? A better scenario is to be born as an exalted brahmin there and then relocate to the West for your material needs. You would have the best of both worlds.
Oh, we will just stay in the deep slumber mode and blame the conversions on the poaching by "bad" people. It is lot easier to 'fix the blame', than to pro-actively stop the conversions. When common sense and pragmatism yield to a biased translation of the scriptures, no one wins.
Pranam.
Aum Namah Shivaya
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Reality must always be real. It is not with forms and names. That which underlies these is the reality. It underlies limitations, being itself limitless. It is not bound. It underlies unrealities, itself being real. Reality is that which is. It is as it is. It transcends speech. It is beyond the expressions 'existence, non-existence', etc." ~Sri Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi~
Surely, if the selves are NOT differentiated prior to birth then indeed allocation of souls to newborns is random. But with Karma, the allocation of souls to newborns is NOT random.Originally Posted by satay
Now, the disagreement we are having is whether the Karma concept invariably has to lead to Varna by birth. Neither can I see that this has to invariably follow nor do I believe there is sruthi/BG support for this.
This does not follow. Influence by gunas is INDEED what determines one's varna. How? Here is an old but still useful post. Now, what interaction between the gunas leads one to be born in a "mlechha" family?that is in effect, existence of parkriti and influence of guna and by denying that you are also implying that there is no reincarnation.
I agree that absent Karma, allocation of selves to newborns can only happen randomly and since God will NOT do things randomly, we can together disregard this illogical concept.Thus essentially this leads us to maleccha theories of one life, one external God who does things randomly, illogically.
Namaste WM,
Honestly, most of your post didn't make any sense to me. I can't help you with what you 'believe'. It is your own karma that you have to work out by yourself. Just like I am working out mine. It is our own burden to carry as you mentioned in another thread.
Recently, a friend of mine reminded me not to discuss this knowledge as it is meant to be secretive but I ignored his advice.
May I suggest you read sarabhanga or atanu's post on hdf when you get some time? Example the thread below.
http://hindudharmaforums.com/showpos...6&postcount=11
With this I leave this discussion. I am sorry if I have lost some friends today.
Last edited by satay; 24 July 2012 at 04:26 PM.
satay
Pranam Param ji
Well thank you, it is not necessary we should agree on everything, that doesn't make anyone aDharmi either. My views on Varna has always been guna, karma birth based.
Why do you think anyone here is anti Hindu simply because he or she does not agree with your point of view?
perhaps if you can show that the way of ॐ has been transgressed we can discuss.
If you cared to understand what OP want to discuss you might appreciate the answer.Then how come same clans of kShatRiyas still exist?
Not every tough passage in shastra is work of Islamic bigots.This is a rotten Islamic claim that Parsuram annihilated the entire world. ParShuram was an aVaTARs of ViShNu, his birth was for the destruction of aDhaRMa, he never killed any innocent. He killed 21 evil kings and not killed kShatRiyas 21 times, even in Valmiki Ramayana Parshuram is mentioned as killer of terrorists.
here is what Mahabharat says;
"Suteji said, 'Listen, O ye Brahmanas, to the sacred descriptions I utter O ye best of men, ye deserve to hear of the place known as Samanta-panchaka. In the interval between the Treta and Dwapara Yugas, Rama (the son of Jamadagni) great among all who have borne arms, urged by impatience of wrongs, repeatedly smote the noble race of Kshatriyas. And when that fiery meteor, by his own valour, annihilated the entire tribe of the Kshatriyas, he formed at Samanta-panchaka five lakes of blood.
Just in case the translation is not true see the Sanskrit yourself.
Book 1
Chapter 2
1 [रसयग]
समन्तपञ्चकम इति यद उक्तं सूतनन्दन
एतत सर्वं यथान्यायं शरॊतुम इच्छामहे वयम
2 [स]
शुश्रूषा यदि वॊ विप्रा बरुवतश च कथाः शुभाः
समन्तपञ्चकाख्यं च शरॊतुम अर्हथ सत्तमाः
3 तरेता दवापरयॊः संधौ रामः शस्त्रभृतां वरः
असकृत पार्थिवं कषत्रं जघानामर्ष चॊदितः
4 स सर्वं कषत्रम उत्साद्य सववीर्येणानल दयुतिः
समन्तपञ्चके पञ्च चकार रुधिरह्रदान
I am sure you know why he did what he did.
Jai Shree Krishna
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
You didn’t answered my previous question, it is you who is denying the existence of law of karma. What will you call those who are converted to Islam despite being born in Hindu clans? All Muslims were Hindus once, but are they maleccha or not?
Brahmin Parshuram become immortal, he surrounded to Kshatriya Ram. Who was wrong and who was right when Parshuram and Ram both are form’s of ViShNu.
In India birth in low caste means birth based reservations, and so called higher caste have no proper right. You don’t know that 70% of total sweepers in India are born in Brahmin clans, they are doing this to earn their living not pride. But what will you call them who are born into these families , what were they who get approrpriate womb?
Change of Varna happened in our itihasa when law of Vedas was legal law. Vishwamitra, Takshal, Dhrist, Ailush, Jabal, Agniveshya, Rathotar, Harit, Matang etc none was a Brahmin born but they were clearly mentioned as Brahmins, even Bhagwan Ram and Krishna did not objected them, there is no question anyone will get punishment of lower varna in next birth.
I will like to know what is an approrpriate womb for Eastern Mind who is a White Hindu origin from a Kahatriya clan ,but his action is that of a Brahmin.
This is not important what we accept but the importance is what adharmis are promoting behind the Hindu face. Historical evidence are more important then whatever somebody say.
If Varna is truly birth based on previous Karma, then how come Bharat's grandson Takshal become a Brahmin when he was born in Raghu dynasty?
Raghu was himself a descendant of Manuji Maharaj, and Manuji himself says -
BraHmin can become Shudra and Shudra can become Brahmin by their actions. Similarly kShaTriYas and VaiShYa s can also change their Varnas. (MS 10.65)
Comment on Sutji is much more different. Suteji described this to Shaunak Rishi who was born as kShaTriYa. Vayu Puran, ViShNu Puran and Harivansh Puran, mention that sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas- Brahmin, kShaTriYa, VaiShYa, and ShUdRa.
Birth of Parshuram was not to annihilate any "Noble Race", he killed only terrorists who take birth as kShaTriYa but but destroyed Khatriyahood.
Translation is not worth -
यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत ।
अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् ॥BG-4.7॥
परित्राणाय साधूनां विनाशाय च दुष्कृताम् ।
धर्मसंस्थापनार्थाय सम्भवामि युगे युगे ॥BG-4.8॥
I questioned Satay in previous comment but he avoided to answrer, but can you answer please?
[CENTER][B][FONT=Arial Black][SIZE=7][COLOR=Yellow] ॐ[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/B]
[/CENTER]
I don't understand, who are this aDharmis you keep refering too?Originally Posted by PARAM;
History tells us Varna has alway been based on birth, this is the only prerequisite creteria one can safely arrive at classification.
I can not comment on something I know absolutely nothing.If Varna is truly birth based on previous Karma, then how come Bharat's grandson Takshal become a Brahmin when he was born in Raghu dynasty?
It would be nice if had quoted the verse, in what context this is said, yes we all have potential to become question is at what point is appropriate?Raghu was himself a descendant of Manuji Maharaj, and Manuji himself says -
BraHmin can become Shudra and Shudra can become Brahmin by their actions. Similarly kShaTriYas and VaiShYa s can also change their Varnas. (MS 10.65)
I can quote you explicitly from Mahabharata when Bhishmapita says it otherwise
You are changing the context, let us stick to the point, it is explicitly said in shastra that Parshuram anhilated the Kshatriyas 21 times if you have a verse that says otherwise please quote, no point in giving opinions.
Comment on Sutji is much more different. Suteji described this to Shaunak Rishi who was born as kShaTriYa. Vayu Puran, ViShNu Puran and Harivansh Puran, mention that sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas- Brahmin, kShaTriYa, VaiShYa, and ShUdRa.
Birth of Parshuram was not to annihilate any "Noble Race", he killed only terrorists who take birth as kShaTriYa but but destroyed Khatriyahood.
I do not know what the question isTranslation is not worth -
यदा यदा हि धर्मस्य ग्लानिर्भवति भारत ।
अभ्युत्थानमधर्मस्य तदात्मानं सृजाम्यहम् ॥BG-4.7॥
परित्राणाय साधूनां विनाशाय च दुष्कृताम् ।
धर्मसंस्थापनार्थाय सम्भवामि युगे युगे ॥BG-4.8॥
I questioned Satay in previous comment but he avoided to answrer, but can you answer please?
Jai Shree Krishna
Rig Veda list only 33 devas, they are all propitiated, worthy off our worship, all other names of gods are derivative from this 33 originals,
Bhagvat Gita; Shree Krishna says Chapter 3.11 devan bhavayatanena te deva bhavayantu vah parasparam bhavayantah sreyah param avapsyatha Chapter 17.4 yajante sattvika devan yaksa-raksamsi rajasah pretan bhuta-ganams canye yajante tamasa janah
The world disappears in him. He is the peaceful, the good, the one without a second.
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