Relationship between mula rupa and avatara rupa

[wundermonk]

Greetings all,

A Handbook of Sri Madhvacharyar's Poorna-Brahma Philosophy is a good book expounding Madhva Vedanta.

Madhva explains the relationship between Vishnu (mula rupa - original form) and the avataras (avatara rupa - avatara form) thus:

The avatara rupas are completely identical to mula rupa in all respects - such as knowledge, power, etc. Then, what is the difference between them? Why have different names for the same entity?

The answer is that the mula rupa is prior in time and avatara rupas are posterior in time. This is the ONLY difference. Kurma avatar as come AFTER (temporally) Matsya avatar, etc. In terms of manifestation, one is NOT superior to another. All are equally full in their gunas (rupas and kriyas) and powers (shakti). They are all full and perfect. Neither in time, nor in space, nor in power, nor in qualities are they superior or inferior to one another. When the full of mula rupa withdraws the other fulls, there remains only one full, namely Vishnu or Poorna Brahman. The laya (dissolution) of an avatara does not mean dissolution, but means invisible to human sight.

In support of the fullness of essence in both the mula rupa and the avatara rupa, Madhva quotes the invocation of the Isopanishad:

That is full; this if full. The full comes out of the full. Taking the full from the full the full itself remains.

ॐ पूर्णमदः पूर्णमिदं पूर्णात्पुर्णमुदच्यते
पूर्णश्य पूर्णमादाय पूर्णमेवावशिष्यते ॥

[Viraja]

OM � Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat purnamudachyate.
Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnamevavashisyate.�

�That is whole, this is whole, from whole comes out of whole.
If Whole is subtracted from whole, still whole is left.�

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

The avatara rupas are completely identical to mula rupa in all respects - such as knowledge, power, etc. Then, what is the difference between them? Why have different names for the same entity?

Can you inform us of the significance of the avatāra ? Why did viṣṇu choose an incarnation of matsya, or kūrma or varāha ( to mention a few) ?

Why all the trouble to become a fish, a tortoise , a boar ? Would not an incarnation of kṛṣṇa-jī or śrī rāmaḥ been sufficient ?


praṇām

[philosoraptor]

The reason for matsya avatAra should be obvious. The purpose of this avatAra was to save the veda and the saptaRishi-s from the floods of pralaya. With varAha avatAra, the reason was similar. bhUmi was submerged within the ocean and only boars and other "unclean" animals by tradition inhabit the ocean, so a form appropriate to this location was chosen. After all, He had to fight with and kill Hiranyaaksha.

Why could He not do it in the form of Raama or Krishna? He certainly could have. But what better way to show off His glories than by taking a transcendental from appropriate to the situation?

[Viraja]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

Why all the trouble to become a fish, a tortoise , a boar ? Would not an incarnation of kṛṣṇa-jī or śrī rāmaḥ been sufficient ?


praṇām

I would like to attempt at the answer within a very limited knowledge:

To me it appears as relevant to the planetary significance of those avataras. Men are divided into 9 types or having the disposition of any of the navagrahas - to redeem people of every disposition, god took avatara in the form that signifies that planet - Matsya is fish which is signified by Ketu; Varaha is Rahu that is signified by 'Boar' and so forth....

this is just an attempt at a suitable reply but even I am not happy with this solution. I would love to hear something like 'Matsya avatara happened at the mahaPralaya times and for some specific reason, a fish is more aptly signifying of the circumstance' and so forth, but when it comes to Varaha Avatara - don't know the reason why especially a boar.

[philosoraptor]

By the way, it's really no trouble for the Supreme Lord of all to appear in such forms. He can do anything quite effortlessly.

[Viraja]

By the way, it's really no trouble for the Supreme Lord of all to appear in such forms. He can do anything quite effortlessly.

"The Jagat resides inside of Him".

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namasté

The reason for matsya avatAra should be obvious. The purpose of this avatAra was to save the veda and the saptaRishi-s from the floods of pralaya. With varAha avatAra, the reason was similar. bhUmi was submerged within the ocean and only boars and other "unclean" animals by tradition inhabit the ocean, so a form appropriate to this location was chosen. After all, He had to fight with and kill Hiranyaaksha.
than by taking a transcendental from appropriate to the situation?

Far as I can tell you are offering the story of what occured and not its interpretation...
Could not matsya have been used consecutively, time-after-time, why bring in kūrma or varāha ?



praṇām

[philosoraptor]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�


Far as I can tell you are offering the story of what occured and not its interpretation...
Could not matsya have been used consecutively, time-after-time, why bring in kūrma or varāha ?



praṇām

Pranams,

I don't offer interpretations when interpretations are not required. When an interpretation is required, I usually go to the commentaries of the AchAryas rather than giving one of my own.

Whether Matsya, Kuurma, Varaaha, etc, this is the same Lord in each appearance. He doesn't have to be in any specific form to accomplish a task. That He takes different forms suited to each situation is just one of His many glories.

regards,

[yajvan]

hariḥ oṁ
~~~~~~

namast�

Pranams,
Whether Matsya, Kuurma, Varaaha, etc, this is the same Lord in each appearance. He doesn't have to be in any specific form to accomplish a task. That He takes different forms suited to each situation is just one of His many glories.

regards,

If what you say is true, then why the different forms ? This cannot be done for our amusement, no ?

I will no longer pursue the question, and see if any of our other esteemed HDF members may wish to comment on this.

Yet, that said, I can tell you this, there is not one form, one idea that does not have a deeper significant meaning that the wise offer us.


praṇām