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Thread: Srila Prabhupada

  1. #21
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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Quote Originally Posted by philosoraptor View Post
    Such people need to analyze their own position, and consider where they would be had Sri Prabhupada never taken the trouble to build the temples and publish the books that reformed them.
    In fact as western Hare Krishna,I am very grateful to Srila Prabhupada who wrote several (long) books to spread trascendental knowledge in the west.

    All glories to Srila Prabhupada!!!

    The Lotus feet of Narayana are for everyone, male and female, human and non-human, brahmin and mleccha, but not for those who offend His devotees.
    Yeah...Lord Vishnu may forgive the ones who offend Him but not the ones who offend His bhaktas!

  2. #22
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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Quote Originally Posted by JayaRadhe View Post
    Namaste!

    "Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."
    Source?

  3. #23
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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Vannakkam

    Quote Originally Posted by JayaRadhe View Post
    For example, he said things like:
    "Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."
    We don't even need Srila Prabhupada to tell us that, if at all that was what he said in the first place. It's common sense and rationality. Take a look around and you'll know for yourself what's happening, if you don't already know. It's just that we're living in some sort of denial in order to "promote" equality. Those who realise the real situation just tolerate. Srila Prabhupada went a step further and mentioned it to his followers (again, if that was what he really said).

    From what I know, ISKCON is one of few organisations which doesn't see gender, race and caste among its followers. On top of that, they don't even think of themselves as a Hindu organisation.

    Does it bother anyone else that many Westerners are introduced to Hinduism through this one man, and these are the kinds of things that filled his lectures and continue to fill his publications? Also, what kinds of Hindus are these bigoted lectures creating?
    I don't think so. I've read many books of his and can't really point out where he states that racial and gender inequality are important. It exists in small amounts here and there but definitely not so much as to eclipse everything else and highlight these inequalities. Even then he doesn't state that it is important for us in today's world. To state that "these are the kinds of things that filled his lectures and continue to fill his publications" is simply exaggerating.

    When there's so much else to appreciate and learn from him, it's not right to insist that Westerners are getting a bigoted view of Hinduism. There's so much more to ISKCON and Hinduism.


    Aum Namah Shivaya

  4. #24

    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetavan View Post
    Originally Posted by JayaRadhe
    Namaste!

    "Sudra is to be controlled only. They are never given to be freedom. Just like in America. The blacks were slaves. They were under control. And since you have given them equal rights they are disturbing, most disturbing, always creating a fearful situation, uncultured and drunkards. What training they have got? They have got equal right? That is best, to keep them under control as slaves but give them sufficient food, sufficient cloth, not more than that. Then they will be satisfied."
    Source?
    It doesn't appear to be from his books. Here is what I found from the online Vedabase site which archives his writings:

    CC Madhya 8.21
    tathāpi puchila, — tumi rāya rāmānanda?
    teṅho kahe, — sei haṅa dāsa śūdra manda

    Word for word:
    tathāpi — still; puchila — He inquired; tumi — you; rāya rāmānanda — Rāmānanda Rāya; teṅho kahe — he replied; sei haṅa — I am that; dāsa — servant; śūdra — belonging to the śūdra community; manda — very low.

    "Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then inquired whether he was Rāmānanda Rāya, and he replied, “Yes, I am Your very low servant, and I belong to the śūdra community.”"

    CC Madhya 8.22
    tabe tāre kaila prabhu dṛḍha āliṅgana
    premāveśe prabhu-bhṛtya doṅhe acetana

    Word for word:
    tabe — thereafter; tāre — him; kaila — did; prabhu — Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; dṛḍha — firm; āliṅgana — embracing; prema-āveśe — in ecstatic love; prabhu-bhṛtya — the servant and the master; doṅhe — both; acetana — unconscious.

    Translation:
    Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then embraced Śrī Rāmānanda Rāya very firmly. Indeed, both the master and the servant almost lost consciousness due to ecstatic love.
    and

    At the present moment, our senses are contaminated. I am thinking, “I am American, so my senses should be used for the service of my country, my society, my nation.” Or else I am thinking, “I am Indian, and my senses are Indian senses, and therefore they should be used for India.” In ignorance, one does not know that the senses belong to Kṛṣṇa. Instead, one thinks that one has American senses, Indian senses, or African senses. This is called māyā, illusion. In material life, the senses are covered by designations such as “American,” “Indian,” and “African,” but when our senses are no longer contaminated by all these designations (sarvopādhi-vinirmuktam), bhakti begins.

    To think “I am an American. Why shall I take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and worship a Hindu god?” is foolishness. If one thinks, “I am Muhammadan,” “I am Christian,” or “I am Hindu,” one is in illusion. One must purify the senses so that one can understand, “I am a spirit soul, and the supreme spirit soul is Kṛṣṇa. I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, and therefore it is my duty to serve Kṛṣṇa.” When one thinks in this way, one immediately becomes free. At that time, one is no longer American, Indian, African, this, or that. At that time, one is Kṛṣṇa-ized, or Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is what is wanted. Therefore Kuntīdevī says, “My dear Kṛṣṇa, Hṛṣīkeśa, You are the master of the senses.”
    (the above is from http://vedabase.com/en/tqk/6)

    Of note, I did find a reference where he translated kirATas as Africans, and includes them in a list of tribes (which included the Huns and Mongolians) who were against Vedic culture and conquered by Maharaja Bharata. I also noted another reference in which he describes certain jungle-dwellers as being like Black Africans and being lower than sudras.
    Last edited by philosoraptor; 07 December 2012 at 10:33 AM.
    Philosoraptor

    "Wise men speak because they have something to say. Fools speak because they have to say something." - Plato

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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Back in the late '70's, early 80's when I first came to 'organised Hinduism' after experiencing it first hand in South-East Asia, there wasn't much choice around.

    I live in Australia and back at the time, the only 'outlets' for religious Hindu expressionism was ISKCON and the Theosophical Society. I was a member of both.

    I was a member of ISKCON for two years, going to the temple twice a week (ISKCON prasadam beats any food there is out there...wish I had some now)...but I am digressing via way of introduction.

    I was more interested at the time in 'the message' rather than 'the messenger', so I didn't worship Srila Prabhupada in the same way the other devotees did.

    I read a lot about him and his translations of the Vaishnav texts and what can I say? As a person, he seemed to me to be really arrogant, opinionated and aloof (that is in MY opinion and I am not criticising him).

    However, that being said, I must give Srila Prabhupada my respect and admiration for bringing all this knowledge to the Western World, working tirelessly on this and enduring many hardships because of it. He is a very great example of Karma and Bhakti Yoga.

    I will even quote him sometimes (even though I am a Shaiva now) because he did say many intuitive and inspiring things as well as things that were just...well...not very nice.

    This is how I see it and no disrespect is intended, if it wasn't for Srila Prabhupada, I probably wouldn't be here. That's all I know.

  6. #26
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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromancer View Post
    Back in the late '70's, early 80's when I first came to 'organised Hinduism' after experiencing it first hand in South-East Asia, there wasn't much choice around.

    I live in Australia and back at the time, the only 'outlets' for religious Hindu expressionism was ISKCON and the Theosophical Society. I was a member of both.

    I was a member of ISKCON for two years, going to the temple twice a week (ISKCON prasadam beats any food there is out there...wish I had some now)...but I am digressing via way of introduction.

    I was more interested at the time in 'the message' rather than 'the messenger', so I didn't worship Srila Prabhupada in the same way the other devotees did.

    I read a lot about him and his translations of the Vaishnav texts and what can I say? As a person, he seemed to me to be really arrogant, opinionated and aloof (that is in MY opinion and I am not criticising him).

    However, that being said, I must give Srila Prabhupada my respect and admiration for bringing all this knowledge to the Western World, working tirelessly on this and enduring many hardships because of it. He is a very great example of Karma and Bhakti Yoga.

    I will even quote him sometimes (even though I am a Shaiva now) because he did say many intuitive and inspiring things as well as things that were just...well...not very nice.

    This is how I see it and no disrespect is intended, if it wasn't for Srila Prabhupada, I probably wouldn't be here. That's all I know.
    I only know ISKCON (and a few other Gaudiya Vaishnava associations) in the 2000's since that is my generation. I do agree that while Srila Prabhupada's personal comments may have been quite Victorian in their ideals, but his transplantation of Vaishnava translations and lifestyle is pretty amazing.

    Despite the apparent 'sexism,' he not only initiated women with diksha mantra, but he also gave them brahminical (not the thread though, as that is only for males), he let them become pujarinis on the altar, on the vyasasana, and gave them tasks that normally would be filled by men. Every morning all ISKCON temples play the song "Govindam Adi-Purusham" even though it is sung by a woman, Yamuna devi dasi, who just died a year or so ago in Sharanagati, BC, Canada, close to where I live.

    Despite the apparent 'racism' ISKCON as an official organisation sees varna as something by nature of the person, rather than any external birth. We had the opportunity for Africa's first (in my knowledge) Vaishnava guru, Srila Bhakti Tirtha Swami, who himself was initiated by Srila Prabhupada and through him established temples in Africa. ISKCON is one of the few new religious organisations for its time that just was never 'racist in practice' in the very beginning. Now there are Vaishnava temples in places like South Africa, Ghana, a few in the Philippines, Hong Kong, and everywhere in South America due to his influence.

    He taught us converts that Vaishnavism, Vaishnava Dharma is OUR culture, and that to me is truly inspiring.

    Jaya Sriman Narayana!

  7. #27
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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Namaste

    Just as I got off work today from an incredibly high-pressure day of meetings, high-tech “wire walking” et all, I hit the HDF from my cell phone browser from the car while driving (illegal), and literally was ready to explode reading some of the vile posting attacking Prabhupad, and from a POV totally ignorant of those times and circumstances in the West.

    I finally get home, and I am happy to see a moderator removed the vile and ill-informed comments. The thread is back as it was, with good commentary from members such as Gauripriya and others. I did not even want to get involved by the way, nor do I want to even imagine responding with something that would again trigger what I had read (before it was – thankfully! – removed).

    But I have to say one thing, in terms of those days and the circumstances of those times. I am not a Vaishnava, I am a Saiva – but a Western Hindu. An American Western Hindu. America was then, and even today, a tough place. I know some from other countries only have a vision of America as rich and “safe”, but in the days when Prabhupad came to America, this Guru from India (a little man with the bravery of a giant) walked about the most dangerous cities in this country. He walked in dangerous, dirty, tough streets and neighborhoods. For those by the way who think the Haight-Ashbury was some peace and love hippie heaven in the 1960’s and early 1970’s, I can tell you the truth that there were more guns in the 10 square blocks of the Haight then there ever was peace and love.

    Comments (such as the “blam!” or gun sound comments) etc., which try to take some past statement of some Indian Guru and twist a joke of those days into something it was not, I am sick of it. Also I want to tell you what someone like Prabhupad means to all Western Hindus, no matter if you are Saiva, Vaishnav, Gaudiya, or Vedantan, or on or whatever. He came here. For most of us, that is what matters. He walked in these streets. That mattered. I did not agree with everything Prabhupad says or said in those days. For example, everyone knows I am not a conservative when it comes to “Varna” question or “Brahmin by birth” arguments – and the fact of the matter is Prabhupad was very conservative about those things even though he liberally allowed others to do pujas, etc., but it doesn’t matter to me as a Western Hindu regarding that I am a liberal in that regard and cannot agree with everything, but my opinion is worth only a dime and the over all picture of Prabhupad is what mattered. In India, there are scum who surround a good Brahmin and try to pull the boy’s sacred thread off. Now let us, as Western Hindus, take this the next level and imagine some worm even trying to do that to Prabhupad. What do you think would happen to that worm?

    Well, let me just say, after that worm was removed from the eyes and presence of Prabhupad, that piece of human offal would then be taken by the strong young men who were devotees, the men and even some of the women, and he would have been put in a hell from which he would have never imagined existed in this world. Prabhupad would never see it happen, nor even know.

    Some people think, the devotee boys and men of those days were all peace and love, and perhaps “weak”? Let me set the record straight. Because I looked into them, I knew a few. Including a couple of “Gurus”.

    In those days, these young men and even boys, and the older men as well, well for the most part you did not want to mess with them. The truth of the matter was, those were the days of the street. In cities that were very mean, and the fact of the matter was, more than a few of these brave and strong boys were street fighters. They walked and spoke and sang the message of Chaitanya and followed Prabhupad, and … they also hit those mridangas a lot and they had strong muscles on their shoulders. They could crack a kartal where it hurts if that is what it came down to. Some were razor boy tough Cubans. Some were Mexican street toughs. White boys who one week had a Marlboro cigarette hanging from their mouth and drove a bad GTO, and the next week had their head shaved and were on the streets for Prabhupad. Some were from rich families, but they were nothing to mess with either. Surfer boys, strong, and you don’t want to mess with them. Others were meek, but the “Sankirtan Party Leader” would teach them how to fight in the street, it wasn’t just about books it was about reality. Prabhupad might not have known about all the fights. Sometimes even with Hells Angels members, but that was ok, more than a couple of the devotees were ex-Angels. Some were just geeks – they were protected by the others. But most of all, Prabhupad was protected. Because the world, and the streets of Hare Krishna at that time were not a nice little suburban playground. Even a few of the Gurus, they came as street frighters. Take someone like a Hansadutta, tough Germans, these boys in their day could, and would, break your leg like it was a chicken-bone if it came right down to it, and if you see them with their shirt off you know they could and would. The world, and in those days, was a mean place. In some ways, it still is. Never, ever assume anything. Don’t judge “a book by its cover”.

    And never, ever even think you are going to pull the sacred thread off someone like the Bengali from India called Prabhupad who came to America. I don’t know about today. But as time goes by, Prabhupad was, and is now, part of American History. As much as George Washington or Benjamin Franklin. He holds a particular place among Western Hindus in general. Even if you don’t agree with that Guru, and I didn’t agree will things, there are no words for what that soul and Brahmin from Bengal did for America. Violence is never acceptable according to Prabhupad. But yes, there were tough boys. In those days. And I can tell you, there will be tough boys in the future, too. We can only hope they are on the good side of this very mean and tough world.

    Well now – back to Bhajans!

    Om Namah Sivaya
    Last edited by ShivaFan; 12 February 2013 at 05:35 PM. Reason: removed reference to gun so it won't be misunderstood

  8. #28

    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Thank You HDF. I thank everyone on this thread that has supported the essence and purpose, and role of Shrila PrabhupAd. Also Shiva Fan's long heart felt msgs from a handheld device.
    I am not a part of ISKCON, but Shrila PrabhupAd is a special shikshA Guru for me, through his books, disciples and grand-disciples, but also thru' his presence. He looked over me occasionally. (i wasn't there when he was in the body - in the 70s - i was too young at the time in any case).
    Although KRshNa was in my life before i knew about him, he did give me the strict structure by which to be the best for KRshNa and a lot of knowledge about the Supreme Lord, the Absolute Truth.

    I felt broken after yet another attack on his views, yesterday and was sadly contemplating not coming back to the forums (I had done that once in the past becs someone portrayed him badly). Thanks satay, for super moderation.

    About women, the ones who took his shikshA, he set them free, gave them the gurukilli (the master's key) to KRshNa bhakti, inherently liberating in nature. The ones who felt like victims were mostly outsiders.

    There are many things i do not judge - like young children waking up at dawn. The thing is, between a thought that takes hold in PrabhupAd's mind, a sankalpa, and its manifestation in this world, there are many steps and people involved. So we cannot judge anything.

    The disciples knew the essence and purport of the Guru's original sankalpa which only had good intentions - to make people KrshNa-conscious - men, women, children, old and young irrespective or nationality, race or cast.

    I also admire how the disciples recognize the import behind his words and took into consideration how the words fit or did not fit into other cultures.

    Jai Shrila PrabhupAd
    Jai Shri KRshNa Chaitanya, Prabhu NityAnanda , Shri Advaita, GadAdhar, Shrivas-Adi Gaura-bhakta-vRndA
    Jai Jai Shri Shri RAdhe-ShyAm
    || Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||

  9. #29
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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    First of all, I want to apologize to fellow members for rendering my honest opinion about Prabhupada into harsh statements. I will do my best exercise better diligence on this. That being said, this does not change my view of the man, and I still feel that opinions should not be suppressed in the interest of critical thinking.

    If there are people who disagree with me on this, then fine - that shouldn't be grounds for worldwide condemnation, shock or horror. The fact of the matter is that I do have valid opinions of the man that should be considered even if you don't agree.

    Frankly, if I was a Hindu I'd be pretty upset that he used Vedic literature to channel his racist and sexist views (and yes, they are just that). A lot of Hindus have wised up to this (check the reviews on Amazon of his books), and aren't afraid to express themselves.

    Now Satay or any other moderator can choose to suppress my opinion on this, should they wish - however everything i've said is verifiable and I'm happy to discuss the points with the same respect I've shown members in all my posts.

    Disagreeing with my opinion doesn't make it any less valid.

    Thanks,
    AG

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    Re: Srila Prabhupada

    Dandavat Pranam to the great Acharya, to whom the world will always remain indebted.

    I agree with the members here that instead of picking statements here and there, one should judge him by what is established. Was any person rejected his/her rights to serve Krishna or get a guru of choice or even to sit on the VyAs asan (the stage to preach) based on his/her caste, race, birth or sex? If not, then all these accusation are unwarranted.

    The Acharya was already old when he came to the US and had come with health problems. One could imagine the fatigue also he was in with the constant need to travel, perform selfless service. So some of his statements may appear harsh, but if one hears with sincerety he will be able to understand what was meant.

    Some of his tough comments on ladies were really uttered out of fatherly care. He used to say that the so-called support for independance that some men gave, were actually exploitation in disguise. These men would break their stable married life or mentality...and fulfill their desire. They would walk away without hesitation, leaving the lady with a kid probably. She will continue her life with her worries and depression; having relationship with many men. He used to ask: Is this your independence?

    One lady devotee was describing how once she was jabbed rudely by a man when Srila Prabhupada was performing a kirtan. The man was shocked to see the Acharya's angry gaze focused fully on him, amongst 100s of audience...she said how in that eyes she got all the fatherly protection she needed.

    By trying to heap insults on the great Acharya, one is actually insulting himself.

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