How does Advaita counter this argument?

[vishnu]

Namaste,

I came across another interesting observation. It is said that "supersoul" resides in everyone's heart. And according to advaita, supersoul and soul are one and the same. If that is so than during heart transplant the soul should also change. But this does not happen. This proves karma theory also wrong. So, is advaita is wrong ?? !!!

Please comment if the logic is wrong.

Hari Om.

[smaranam]

Namaste,

I came across another interesting observation. It is said that "supersoul" resides in everyone's heart. And according to advaita, supersoul and soul are one and the same. If that is so than during heart transplant the soul should also change. But this does not happen. This proves karma theory also wrong. So, is advaita is wrong ?? !!!

Please comment if the logic is wrong.

Hari Om.

Namaste VishNuJi,

Supersoul is inside the soul - like concentric circles. JeevAtmA is the outer ring, paramAtmA is the inner core. Advaita tries to unshell the jeevAtmA.

I shall tell you what Swami PrabhupAd explained when someone asked the same qn - heart transplant.

SP: I am sitting in this chair. You tell me this chair is old and needs to be replaced. So I simply get up, move aside, and let you replace the chair , then i go back and take my seat again - in the new chair kept in the same spot.

Similarly, the soul moves aside, lets the surgeons replace [the biological, material] heart, and then moves back in.



I shall try to find the exact quote.

Actually, "heart" is physical as well as spiritual. When this discussion comes up - "Where is the soul ?" There are so many answers.
ShAstra says "in the heart" - Shwetashvatara Upanishad, Bhagavad Gita
Some say "in the adnya chakra" (betN the eyebrows) - BrahmaKumAris' answer
I say "on Shwetadweep". You will not find it on the map though. Since KRushNa asked me to walk into His heart, i am there too. Well, incidentally, KRushNa's heart is on Shwetadweep... but He lives in my heart and everyone else's ... so how does that work ? ...

----

The same argument can be extended to genetic engineering, singularity ...
What happens with genetic engineering ? Biological bodies are "made by man" in the Lab, "Made in CountryXYZ". So where does the soul come from ? The soul "takes possession of" the body, and as soon as it does, the body comes alive, whether apparently facilitated by man or God/prakruti/nature, if the body fits like hand-in-glove with the karma of this kAraN-sharIr (causal body - ID token of the jeevAtmA).

Singularity ? Do we want to open that can of worms ? Perhaps not on this thread. It claims that the entire persona can be uploaded onto a body with deceases (vikAr) like cancer, by collapsing the old body. So does that give rise to soulless robots like Blade Runner ? of course not.

Jai Shri KrushNa
praNAm

[smaranam]

Namaste, here is the link to the conversation:
http://www.prabhupadanugas.eu/?p=6433
He points to BG2.13 - “As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change.”.

Radhe ShyAm ~

[devotee]

Namaste Vishnu,

I came across another interesting observation. It is said that "supersoul" resides in everyone's heart. And according to advaita, supersoul and soul are one and the same. If that is so than during heart transplant the soul should also change. But this does not happen. This proves karma theory also wrong. So, is advaita is wrong ?? !!!

Please comment if the logic is wrong.

Smaranam has already explained it well and I think that should be sufficient. I would like to add a little bit :

The way you are out to derive "logical" conclusions one after the other ... it is going to prove that entire Hindu scriptures are wrong ! The Atman residing in the heart of all beings is not something that Advaita has proposed. It is accepted by all Vedantic schools because this is what the scriptures say.

However, please hold your breath & read further what the heart really means in this context. As Smaranam has stated, it is not the physical heart. It is located just below the begining of our neck & opposite Anahat chakra of our spinal chord. During meditation, the Atman at this location is seen as flame of a lamp of the size of our thumb. Again, it should not be construed that the Atman resides "Only" at this location and nowhere else ! It pervades the entire body but it is perceived prominently there in this form & therefore, it has been said that it is the "seat" of the Atman.

Please remember that Atman has unique characteristics and it cannot be "known" by any of our sense organs & also our mind ... it is beyond mental realm. It is the Eye of the eyes ... it is the Ear of the ears ... it is the Thinker of the thought ... It is the Perceiver & certainly not the object of perception !

OM

[amith vikram]

Well how can the supersoul be both formless and atomic in size? The thing is Since atman is reflected in the intellect, the mind has to be concentrated to that extent.

[anirvan]

Dear Devotee,Smaranam,Sarangidasi and Brahman.

Bhagban is very different for person to person,not because of difference in their view or faith.
It is purely because of their spiritual ascendent. how far one has gone in spiritual sky,has seen that far. thats the reason Madhwacharya has said we should respect other"s view.as spiritual knowledge is ever evolving with great saints.this is clearly demonstrated in development of Vedas. and if you look at different philosophy being preached by different Avtars with refining always with descending time scale.

If god has not a form,how come these billions of forms exist in creation. whatever is not there in brahman,it can"t exist in creation. he is called formless because all forms exist inside him.just like 7 colours mixed to form white. same is meaning oF NIRGUANA -- EXISTENCE OF ALL GUNAS IN ONE, when these gunas manifest we called him SAGUNA/MAHASHAKTI/MAYA.

saguna and nirguana are not different state,but like BUTTER IN MILK.

GOD CREATED HUMAN IN HIS SELF IMAGE. because this form is the best form hiddent in NIRGUNA BRAHMAN.

[anirvan]

GOD can be divided into different form like SUN as follows

1* Surya = Sun = bhagban (human form,dwibhuja--manifest only
to Ragamargi devotee-dasya,sakhya
batsalya,madhura bhava devotee)

2* Surya mandal = Umbra = param-atma(residing in all heart- as soul
realized in yoga siddhi)

3* Suryaloka = sunlight = brahman ( the Ang-jyoti of Bhagban= nirguna plus Saguna brahman , seen to Jnanis, nirvikalpa samadhi and to santa-bhaba-bhaktas)

It is very clear that the BHAGABAN beyond the Advita nirguana brahamn of Vedanta. vedanta has just given the hints about Bhagaban.
srimadbhagavat mahapurana has given detailed about him.thats why its called PARAM-HANSA-SAMHITA.it is only for PARAM-HANSA= those who had attained the Nirguna-brahman of Advita-vedanta through jnan/yoga/tantra.

The maharaasleela and Srikrishna avtar"s main purpose was to give this higher spiritual realm to human of earth. this Tattva was again Clarified in detail and practical sadhna was demonstrated by SRICHAITANYA avtar.

BHAGBAN has a abode,it is at the juncture of saguna-nirguna. it is neither perceived by JNANIS,or yogis, nor by Dvaita devotees.it can not be prceived by VIDHI-MARGI BHAKTAS. nor by Jnana-mishra bhakti.

only those ragamargi,kevala,parabhakti bhaktas who love him with ananya-chitta,who neither desire for Mokhsa,nor Swarga,nor for any kind of happiness for themselves, but only one desire to serve GOD will be finally go into his abode.

this abode is called NITYA-LOK/ BHAVA-LOK/GURU-DHAM/ NITYA-VRINDAVAN etc.

our world,its creation is the reflection of this nitya-lok. here we lfeel the shadows of the Bhavas like dasya,sakhya,batsalya,madhra,kanta bhava on the principle of that LOK.

JUST IMAGINE,IF THERE IS NO BHAVA ( EMOTIONS),IT CAN"T BE POSSIBLE IN CREATION.OUR CREATION IS DERIVED FROM THE INSPIRATION OF THIS DIVYA BHAVA OF BHAVA-LOK.

OTHERWISE WHAT"S THE PURPOSE OF THIS CREATION???

[anirvan]

in brahman samadhi the entire chitta gets annihilated ,so only remnants is nirguana brahman of advita. But in PARA/ KEVALA BHAKTI sadhakas, a CHINMAYA SARIRA (etheral divine body) develop inside the chitta. only through that body the Chinmay bhagban can be seen felt and served. only this body is able to enter Notyalok. this body is beyond the nirguana brahman of advita.

even remaining in this earthly body,bhaktas can be able to enter into that eternal leela. one can call this as Private leela place of god and the universe creation leela as Public leela place.
THE NITYALOK OR BHABA-LOK IS ETERNAL,BUT THIS SAGUNA LEELA IS MORTAL AND EVER-CHANGING.

jnani is able to see only the nirguana brahman,the light emanating from Bhagban,but Bhakta is able to see nirguna brahman as well his true swaroop,the chinmaya body.

you can refer GITA ,he himself says his birth death are divine,chinmaya and beyond knowledge of jeevas.

But the God of Dvaita philosophy is not equal to This bhagban of nityalok. they worship the Brahma,bishnu,maheswar etc.they are saguna brahman. but with pure bhaktis they gradually realise The real self of Bhagban and from BAIDHA MARGA BHAKTI ,THE GRADUATE INTO RAGA-MARGA BHAKTI.

Only few sadhakas has gone beyond this advita-nirguna brahman into bhava-lok. those highly evolved advita sannyasis are Chaitanya,bamadev,Nigamananda.sri-ramakrishna etc.

[Adhvagat]

Dear Devotee,Smaranam,Sarangidasi and Brahman.

Bhagban is very different for person to person,not because of difference in their view or faith.
It is purely because of their spiritual ascendent. how far one has gone in spiritual sky,has seen that far. thats the reason Madhwacharya has said we should respect other"s view.as spiritual knowledge is ever evolving with great saints.this is clearly demonstrated in development of Vedas. and if you look at different philosophy being preached by different Avtars with refining always with descending time scale.

If god has not a form,how come these billions of forms exist in creation. whatever is not there in brahman,it can"t exist in creation. he is called formless because all forms exist inside him.just like 7 colours mixed to form white. same is meaning oF NIRGUANA -- EXISTENCE OF ALL GUNAS IN ONE, when these gunas manifest we called him SAGUNA/MAHASHAKTI/MAYA.

saguna and nirguana are not different state,but like BUTTER IN MILK.

GOD CREATED HUMAN IN HIS SELF IMAGE. because this form is the best form hiddent in NIRGUNA BRAHMAN.

Anirvan, that's exactly my problem with the notion that Bhagavan would be inferior (Brahman through Maya) than Brahman.

In fact I distanced myself a bit from ISKCON teachings exactly because I didn't agree that the realization of the impersonal aspect of God is an incomplete realization.

Currently I consider all three aspects of the divine complete and infinite in themselves. I mean, if God is infinite, even the realization of a tiny portion would reveal the infinity within, right?

What you say is also very interesting because I've always wondered the reason behind this human form and on a higher level the reason of why the elements organize themselves the way they do. There must be a great secret behind it all. I posted about this a while back: http://www.hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6761, if you could shed some light on that thread I'd be grateful.

Om Tat Sat

[anirvan]

Pietro Impagliazzo, i salute your deep inquisitive mind searching the cause of creation.

i will explain this nityalok/bhagabatlok in the word of my gurudev.

* there is brahman---unmanifest,omnipotent,umnovable,inactive. a desire arise inside it.that desire is "i dont feel good being alone".(remember this is eternal desire behind the creation,,called brahman eshna,kshova).

* the desire became Mahashakti,the supreme mother.(saguna brahman,the so called God by Dviata philosophy). original tattva became GURU/supreme God---the advita bhagaban)

*Guru remained above(innermost circle of concentric rings) and Supreme mother (saguna brahamn/god of dvaita philosophy) remained below( the ring just outside Guru).

*the supreme mother then created billions of universe,plants,animals,springs,
river,seas...everything for his husband"s(supreme god-GURU).

* still neither husband,nor mahashakti (wife) became satisfied.then GURU(husband) descended little down, Mother ascended little up. there the Supreme mother created the BHAVALOK-or nityalok or Bhagabat lok for his husband"s happiness,that is the personal/private/secret home of wife and husband(guru and mahashakti).

* this is the nitya-vrindavan of Radha-krishna in the eyes of Vaishnavas.
this is the Kailasha of siva-gauri in eyes of saivitis.
this is the eternal Guru-dham(nityalok) for devotees of Guru.
this the Allah Hu of Sufi saints
this place is eternal,ever blissful,where advita is doing leela by becoming davita.they have advita knowledge,still they behave like davita.

*this very private place is only for supreme father,supreme mother and their devotees( here these devotees are no ordinary devotees,but Raga-margi highest level devotee...whose sadhna was totally devoid of self-gratification.they feel happy only seeing their god happy.for that matter they are always ready to go to hell also.

* this state comes after advita knowledge is attained and then bhava is matured( jnana-sunya bhakti).here the the body of each individual is not made up off the one made in the mortal creation.but its Chinmaya...the unthinkable divine elements.

This bhavalok is the primordial causative principle of our mortal creation. In that frame of Emotions,love and supreme service,this universe is created.
in other words we can view this as a rehearsal place to practice that supreme divine love with our parents,wife,children,neighbour so that we will be able to ascend into that eternal divine abode. is not this Achintya-veda-aveda is the pinnacle of all philosophy and ultimate truth.

so there is no question of superior or inferior god.same brahman takes different name/form in our human eyes,for different roles. do we say our mother is inferior to our father because mother is doing inferior household works , but they are equal parents to us.

jayaguru