Was Muhammad Enlightened? Part 1

[Ekanta]

Namaskar Ekanta,

I asked you a simple question and you gave us an emotional response. I am still trying to understand the logic behind your post.

You call us hypocrites for questioning you on why you are calling Krishna a mass murderer? Hmm...

Instead of getting into emotional responses back and forth with you and other members who are pretending to be established in turiya, I request you to refute the points spiritualseeker has made in his OP.

I want to make clear that no one here is against muslims and exposing ills of Islam is not the purpose of this forum.

However, I challenge you and atanu to refute spiritualseeker's original post instead of making personal attacks on him and other members.

If you cannot accept this challenge and rather enjoy the turiya state that you are established in, then I request you to stop posting on this thread and don't make personal attacks on us who are clearly established in duality. Otherwise, you look like an hypocrite yourself.

Thank you!

Namaskar
I guess there is emotion, to be unimotional is inhuman. And... I repeat, I didnt call Krishna "mass murderer". It was an example how scriptes can be used depending on intention. You dont have to doubt my attitude towards Krishna. To me he was a full avatar.
By hopocrites I meant members who otherwise post but never in this kind of threads. This I agree might be provocing, but the intention was good.
One doesnt have to be established in turiya to see a little bit of light. Neither does one have to be established in turiya to notice absense of light.
I was on my way to discuss spiritualseekers original post a bit more. But then a lot of folks showed up and started misquoting and turning everything I said upside down. I then quite naturally lost interest. But since "no one here is against muslims" perhaps I dont have to anymore.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam Atanu ji

Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

The above was quoted from the signature line of SS. It was reminder to SS and not to all -- not to you surely.

Om Namah Shivaya

Please do pardon me i missed that signature line.
even though question was asked by ss a lot off us are interested in an open forum with honest answer. instead of evading it.

instead of Muhammad what if i replaced him with Ravan, what would be your answer?



Jai Shree Krishna

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste Ganeshprasadji,

Since i am no more than a seeker, so i cannot answer any better than saying that obvious questions have obvious answers:

I relax and cast aside all mental burdens,
allowing God to -------

The above was quoted from the signature line of SS. It was reminder to SS and not to all -- not to you surely.

Om Namah Shivaya

Thank you atanu, but that still doesnt get muhammad off the hook.

namaste

[atanu]

Thank you atanu, but that still doesnt get muhammad off the hook.
namaste

namaste spiritual,

Since you had written me several pm's requesting advice on some issues relevant to practise of hinduism, i took the liberty to remind you of your signature line. If you think i am wrong (as the moderator and GPji also believe) you simply ignore my unsolicited advice. I am sorry in that case.

I want to get off the hook myself and do not have much time to put Prophet Muhammad on the hook or to get him off.

Logically, I cannot put credence on the personalty cult based Puranic stories as shruti, if they contradict the Vedas. If one goes only by puranic stories, creating mental images of fleshy divinities, in place of spiritual beings, then one would come across many horrendous ideas.

Similarly, i cannot accept Hadiths as stand alone evidences. But I acknowledge Koran as revelation. Koran could not have been written by an illiterate goon and without divine intervention -- this I believe. Also, no authentic Hindu Guru has termed koran as non revealed scripture. And why should revelation descend on to a beast? (I know that only Maharishi Dayanand has questioned the validity of Koran as a revealed scripture but he has also condemned all other Hindu groups).

Moreover the points you raised are all available on internet (mainly on evangelical christian sites). These, i believe have nothing to do with spirituality, logic, and love.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...s-sex-life.htm
http://inthenameofallah.org/Zainab%20bint%20Jahsh%20&%20the%20Veil%20Verse.html
http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Lust.Islam
http://www.muslimhope.com/index.html
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/women.htm
http://www.islam-watch.org/iw-new/index.php
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Farsid...ts_of_Muhammad

Best wishes again. Nothing against you or any one else. Every one is entitled to beliefs.

Om Namah Shivaya

[Spiritualseeker]

Similarly, i cannot accept Hadiths as stand alone evidences. But I acknowledge Koran as revelation. Koran could not have been written by an illiterate goon and without divine intervention

Namaste,

with all due respect atanu, it does not matter if you accept it or not, or if I accept it or not or if heartfully accepts it or not. This is a matter of Islamic revealation and what is considered to be revealation. For 1400 years there is absolute consensus in following the Quran as it is compiled today, and the books of ahadith (the Sunnah) and the third ruling is Consensus of scholars. This is how rulings come in Islam. Like I mentioned you cannot truely understand the Quran without ahadith. Not only this but these people who claim that they dont accept hadith are nothing but innovating into the religion of Islam. It is as if saying that the Consensus for over 1400 years has been wrong.

The Quran itself that you accept has many verses concerning not just DEFENSIVE jihad but also OFFENSIVE. Not only this but the permissibility of bringing war to so called "pagans". Atanu you cannot just read some verses of the Quran and say "oh it has a deeper meaning" but yet change the other offensive verses. The book itself allows for women to get beaten. But if you read in many translations it says beat (lightly). In original arabic it simply says BEAT. now how do muslims know how to beat their wives "lightly"? The answer is through the hadith. The hadith clarify that the Prophet said to LIGHTLY beat your wives.

Anyways like I mentioned earlier if someone who is a muslim rejects hadith and yet goes and does their five daily prayers, it is just an utter contradiction. The five daily prayers are described in detail in hadith. There would not be a single muslim that would know each movement and each words to say in the Salat (prayers) without the hadith.

Now atanu personally you may feel Muhammad is a nice guy, but if you cannot prove it, why mention anything? Its like someone defending George Bush or Saddam Husayn and yet have no proofs against the crimes they commited.

Moreover the points you raised are all available on internet (mainly on evangelical christian sites). These, i believe have nothing to do with spirituality, logic, and love.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...s-sex-life.htm
http://inthenameofallah.org/Zainab%20bint%20Jahsh%20&%20the%20Veil%20Verse.html
http://prophetofdoom.net/Islamic_Quotes_Lust.Islam
http://www.muslimhope.com/index.html
http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Wood/women.htm
http://www.islam-watch.org/iw-new/index.php
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Farsid...ts_of_Muhammad

That is fine, I wish to continue my articles because I have seen these first hand. I can grab my collections of books and read through horific hadith and also QURANIC commentary. I will continue because someone needs to hear it from one who was on the inside.



Best wishes
-juan

[devotee]

Namaste All,

My request to you all is that let SS continue & prove his point. Atanu, you may be aware of all those things by visiting those sites but everyone here is not ... for example, I am not aware.

What is the harm in listening to a person as long he is not distorting the truth ? SS is talking about Hadith (ahadith ? ... Sorry, I don't understand the difference between these two.) & that is a valid scripture in Islam. If anyone, including Heartfully who is a practising Muslim on this forum, knows better than SS & can prove otherwise, it would add to everyone's knowledge.

I myself have read Q'uran & read the life-history of Muhammad & the way Muhammad behaved ... does put a big question mark on him as a prophet. Why ? All the earlier prophets ... all the earlier enlightened beings in all other religions didn't behave the way he did. In fact, seeing the hatred that God wants to spread against non-Muslims & cruelty that is reflected in Q'uran makes for me very hard to believe that Q'uran is a revealed scripture. I must add that I am not an expert on Q'uran but that is what I felt after reading it.

OM

[Spiritualseeker]

Namaste All,

My request to you all is that let SS continue & prove his point. Atanu, you may be aware of all those things by visiting those sites but everyone here is not ... for example, I am not aware.

What is the harm in listening to a person as long he is not distorting the truth ? SS is talking about Hadith (ahadith ? ... Sorry, I don't understand the difference between these two.) & that is a valid scripture in Islam. If anyone, including Heartfully who is a practising Muslim on this forum, knows better than SS & can prove otherwise, it would add to everyone's knowledge.

I myself have read Q'uran & read the life-history of Muhammad & the way Muhammad behaved ... does put a big question mark on him as a prophet. Why ? All the earlier prophets ... all the earlier enlightened beings in all other religions didn't behave the way he did. In fact, seeing the hatred that God wants to spread against non-Muslims & cruelty that is reflected in Q'uran makes for me very hard to believe that Q'uran is a revealed scripture. I must add that I am not an expert on Q'uran but that is what I felt after reading it.

OM

Namaste,

Thank you devotee. Don't worry hadith is fine and ahadith. Ahadith is like plural. Like when I say hadiths thats like slang, it is better for me to use ahadith (though out of lazyness I use hadiths a lot).

I am glad that you dont mind me continuing I know some others dont mind other I just hope I will be able to speak about this more and shine some light on the reality of Muhammad.

Your not alone in feeling the way you did after reading the Quran. Thats why I wish atanu and others could take the Quran as a whole and not just the parts that are nice and sweet. If you listen to lectures by Usama ibn laden , anwar awlaki, the famous Abu Musab al-zarqawi, al-dhawahiri (zawahiri) and others you will note how frequent they quote the Quran. Also they provide scholars of old who were the pillars of Islamic jurisprudence. The point is it is all over the Islamic scriptures.

best wishes
-juan

[Eastern Mind]

Namaste all:

I normally stay way back from such discussions because I know nothing at all about Islam. I don't think I've even seen a copy of the Quran let alone read it, and I don't intend to start. Having said that, I have been following the ups and downs of this discussion, and watched it go emotional off and on, or at least interpreted by some that way.

What bothers me is that we aren't talking solutions much. Defining and redefining scripture, and discussing it ad nauseum doesn't really offer up much. If the planet is to get along without nuking the dickens out of everyone, solutions need to be discussed. From my point of view, both heartfully, and SS are signs of the solution. They've bothed renounced radical fundamental Islam, and moved on. Why? I am wondering. What catalysed this behaviour? As herein lies the secret to having more and more denounce the craziness. So tell me, SS, and HF, what got you thinking out side THAT box? Perhaps we can use what you say to spread this word, and slowly get others elsewhere to change as well. I know its nigh impossible at times (same goes for fundamentalist Christians) and it feels like its just not worth the hassle, but surely some can see the positive in such dialogue. Its like buliding a temple one brick at a time, but in this case we are demolishing the temple (the rigid mind structure of radical Islam) one brick at a time.

Aum Namasivaya God Siva is All and in All.

[satay]

Namaste Ekanta,

I don't wish to derail this thread. So I thank you for the clarification.
If your time permits, please refute Spiritual Seeker's original post.

Thanks,

Namaskar
I was on my way to discuss spiritualseekers original post a bit more. But then a lot of folks showed up and started misquoting and turning everything I said upside down. I then quite naturally lost interest.

[Ganeshprasad]

Namaskar
I guess there is emotion, to be unimotional is inhuman. And... I repeat, I didnt call Krishna "mass murderer". It was an example how scriptes can be used depending on intention. You dont have to doubt my attitude towards Krishna. To me he was a full avatar.
By hopocrites I meant members who otherwise post but never in this kind of threads. This I agree might be provocing, but the intention was good.
One doesnt have to be established in turiya to see a little bit of light. Neither does one have to be established in turiya to notice absense of light.
I was on my way to discuss spiritualseekers original post a bit more. But then a lot of folks showed up and started misquoting and turning everything I said upside down. I then quite naturally lost interest. But since "no one here is against muslims" perhaps I dont have to anymore.

Pranam if you thought, others and I misquoted you or misunderstand you, then it behoves you to correct us, Instead you chose to congratulate me on my understanding of sanatan dharma, by all means convince us about your intent, hopefully not by equating Vedas with Koran revelation, unless off course you can prove the method, the application and the result to be similar.
Jai Shree Krishna