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Thread: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

  1. #31
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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear savithru,

    Whether truth was on my side or not is not the matter.
    the matter is what is the Truth. There is no place for personal feelings and emotions here.
    Absolutely, this is nothing personal, its about the Truth which you followers of Shankara fail to understand.

    What do you want me to prove or disprove ?
    You have some views. you base them on belief ....
    I cannot prove or disprove your belief... since belief is a belief, not based on logical deductions.
    Belief is based on scriptures and tradition and that is our ultimate Pramana and Pradhana and not logical deductions. Our Rishis were not Logicians.

    And then you claim Shankara taught buddhism ... if so what ? Buddha was an enlightened one ... its good that there are so many similarities ! That just goes to show that liberated living is nearly the same, expressions may be slightly different !
    What similarities? Buddhism is completely incompatible with the Vedas and the Upanishads and Shankara himself criticized Buddhist philosophy fanatically.

    General assessment of Buddhist philosophy
    "No further special discussion is required. From whatever points of view the Buddhist systems are tested with regard to their plausibility, they cave in on all sides, like the walls of a well dug in sandy soil. [Buddhist philosophy] has, in fact, no foundation whatever to rest upon, and thus it is foolish to adopt it as a guide in the practical concerns of life. Moreover, the Buddha,3 by presenting three mutually contradictory systems of philosophy — teaching respectively the reality of the external world, the reality of consciousness-only, and general emptiness — has himself made it clear either that he was a man given to making incoherent assertions, or else that hatred of all beings moved him to propound absurd doctrines that would thoroughly confuse all who might take him seriously. Thus, the Buddha's doctrine must be entirely disregarded by all those who have a regard for their own happiness."
    - Shankara
    Shankara's commentary on the Vedanta Sutras

    Only ignorant and foolish people think that Buddhism is compatible with the Vedas and the Upanishads. Sure there are different levels of enlightenment and Buddha too was enlightened but that doesn't mean his teachings should be taken as the ultimate ignoring what the Sruti texts are saying about the ultimate reality.

    From your quotations etc I get a doubt. Is Aurobindo's Advaita also called "Vishishtadvaita " ?

    Love!
    Silence
    No, Ramanuja gives too much emphasis to the Saguna Brahman ignoring its Akhand attributeless Nirguna qualities. Aurobindo's advaita dates back to at least 3000 BC and Brahman is both Saguna and Nirguna which is the only correct view.

    • What does Nirguna Brahman mean?
    Ramanuja argues vehemently against understanding Brahman as one without attributes. Brahman is Nirguna in the sense that impure qualities do not touch it. He provides three valid reasons for staking such a claim:


    Shruti/ Shabda Pramana: All shrutis and shabdas denoting Brahman always list either attributes inherent to Brahman or not inherent to Brahman. The shrutis only seek to deny Brahman from possessing impure and defective qualities which affect the world of beings. There is evidence in the shrutis to this regard. The shrutis proclaim Brahman to be beyond the tri-gunas which are observed. However, Brahman possesses an infinite number of transcendental attributes, the evidence of which is given in vakhyas like "satyam jnanam anantam Brahma" (Taittiriya Upanishad).


    Pratyaksha Pramana: Ramanuja states that "a contentless cognition is impossible". And all cognition must necessarily involve knowing Brahman through the attributes of Brahman.


    Anumana Pramana: Ramanuja states that "Nirgunatva" itself becomes an attribute of Brahman on account of the uniqueness of no other entity being Nirguna. Ramanuja had simplified relationship between bramha and soul.According to him though soul is integral part of bramha it has independent existence.

    - Vishishtadvaita

  2. #32
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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    What matters at the end of the day is
    not where i am a dvaitin , vishistadvaitin , or advaitin.
    All philosophical systems Dvaita of Madhwa, Vishistadvaita of Ramanuja, Advaita of Shankara, Shuddha Advaita of Vallabah and Samkhya are wrong. The correct philosophical system is Isha Upanishad.

    Dvaita is wrong because it does not recognize that Self is Brahman.
    Vishishtadvaita is wrong because it does not recognize that Brahman is literally Nirguna and one without attributes.
    Advaita is wrong because it does not recognize that Saguna Brahman is equal in reality with Nirguna Brahman.
    Samkhya is wrong because it does not recognize Ishvara.

    or even Buddhist.
    Buddhism was refuted by Shankara long ago.

    It does not matter whether i confirm to "Vedas" or "Koran"
    Yeah why it does not matter go and form you own religion then don't respect tradition and orthodoxy.

    What matters is where i discover total Satisfaction ... and live a liberated life here and now or not !

    Whether i live like a Stitapragnya, here and now ... irrespective of whether i follow buddhism or dualism ... is all that matters ... since here and now ... if i am a stitapragya, i am free and reveling as myself.
    I don't think you can know Brahman without following the historical Vedic tradition.

  3. #33
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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste,

    Should we trust Sri Aurobindo ?
    Yes we should, his efforts and voluminous writings were sincere and anyone who has carefully studied the Vedas knows that he is right.

    "In short, I seek not science, not religion, not Theosophy, but Veda — the truth about Brahman, not only about His essentiality, but about His manifestation, not a lamp on the way to the forest, but a light and a guide to joy and action in the world, the truth which is beyond opinion, the knowledge which all thought strives after — yasmin vijnate sarvam vijnatam. I believe that Veda to be the foundation of the Sanatan Dharma; I believe it to be the concealed divinity within Hinduism, — but a veil has to be drawn aside, a curtain has to be lifted. I believe it to be knowable and discoverable. I believe the future of India and the world to depend on its discovery and on its application, not to the renunciation of life, but to life in the world and among men. "

    - Sri Aurobino

    What is his credentials on realisation of Truth ?
    His arguments are his credentials and he is very much close to sampradaya and orthodoxy.

    Saying this, "Shankara's theory of Maya should be wiped out from the earth as he has misled all of us into untruth." can be seen as merely an outburst of an inflated ego ... unless who says this has realised the Truth.

    Savithru, are you Self/Brahman/Truth-realised ?

    OM
    Not yet but I am a follower of Hiranyagarbha Yoga Tradition which our Rishis followed.

  4. #34

    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Dear savithru ji,


    1. You are right that shankara refuted Buddhist views (some of them) ... and that is the reason why its important to understand what are those views he rejected and why. And where there is no disagreement. This understanding is viveka. We do not throw away the baby with the bath water !

    2. Scriptures are not merely beliefs. IF they were beliefs how is one kind of belief better than other ?

    When we say that Vedas are shabda pramanam it means : The subject matter of vedas is supposed to be anadhigata, not available to other pramanas and it should also satisfy phalavat arthabodhakatvam.

    Here, its important to note that if its anadhigata , then alone vedas are the shabda pramanam. So if it contradicts anumana [logic] ... we cannot call it a valid conclusion of the vedas.

    This is the reason why the logical questions I raised earlier hold true and cannot be left out with the pretext that shabda pramanam is beyond logic. Beyond logic does not mean it can get contradicted by logic. what can get contradicted by logic would not fall into shabda pramana category. Even so my earlier contradictions hold.


    Finally ... Sraddha does not mean belief.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear savithru ji,


    1. You are right that shankara refuted Buddhist views (some of them) ... and that is the reason why its important to understand what are those views he rejected and why. And where there is no disagreement. This understanding is viveka. We do not throw away the baby with the bath water !

    2. Scriptures are not merely beliefs. IF they were beliefs how is one kind of belief better than other ?

    When we say that Vedas are shabda pramanam it means : The subject matter of vedas is supposed to be anadhigata, not available to other pramanas and it should also satisfy phalavat arthabodhakatvam.

    Here, its important to note that if its anadhigata , then alone vedas are the shabda pramanam. So if it contradicts anumana [logic] ... we cannot call it a valid conclusion of the vedas.

    This is the reason why the logical questions I raised earlier hold true and cannot be left out with the pretext that shabda pramanam is beyond logic. Beyond logic does not mean it can get contradicted by logic. what can get contradicted by logic would not fall into shabda pramana category. Even so my earlier contradictions hold.


    Finally ... Sraddha does not mean belief.

    Love!
    Silence
    There is something superior than Logic and Reason and its called Revelation and Wisdom. What, you think that Sri Aurobindo did not thought about the contradictions? He was well aware of that and he had enough wisdom to see how the Rishi trampled on the law of contradiction at each level showing its invalidity and reconciling opposite propositions to a divine harmony. The accusations on Shankara and his followers still stands and its a very big accusation which they cannot lift their face and stand without guilt that they corrupted the Sruti to hide their coward theory of Maya. Yajnavakya is no match to Shankara.

    "Synthesis of knowledge, synthesis of dharma, reconciliation and harmony of the opposites form the very soul of this Upanishad. In Western philosophy there is a law called the law of contradiction, according to which opposites mutually exclude each other. Two opposite propositions cannot hold good at the same time, they cannot integrate; two opposite qualities cannot be simultaneously true at the same place and in the same instrument. According to this law, opposites cannot be reconciled or harmonised. If the Divine is one, then however omnipotent He might be, He cannot be many. The infinite cannot be finite. It is impossible for the formless to assume form; if it assumes form, then it abrogates its formlessness. The formula that the Brahman is at the same time with and without attributes, which is exactly what the Upanishad also says about God who is nirguṇo guṇī, with and without attributes, is not admitted by this logic. If formlessness, oneness, infinity of the Brahman are true, then attributes, forms, multiplicity and finiteness of the Brahman are false; brahma satyam jaganmithyā, “the Brahman is the sole reality, the world is an illusion” — such a totally ruinous deduction is the final outcome of that philosophic dictum. The Seer-Rishi of the Upanishad at each step tramples on that law and in each sloka announces its invalidity; he finds in the secret heart of the opposites the place for the reconciliation and harmony of their contradiction. The oneness of the universe in motion and the immobile Purusha, enjoyment of all by renunciation of all, eternal liberation by full action, perpetual stability of the Brahman in movement, unbound and inconceivable motion in the eternal immobility, the oneness of the Brahman without attributes and the Lord of the universe with attributes, the inadequacy of Knowledge alone or of Ignorance alone for attaining Immortality, Immortality obtained by simultaneous worship of Knowledge and Ignorance, the supreme liberation and realisation gained not by the constant cycle of birth, not by the dissolution of birth but by simultaneous accomplishment of Birth and Non-Birth, — these are the sublime principles loudly proclaimed by the Upanishad."

    - Sri Aurobindo

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Namaste Savithru,

    Quote Originally Posted by savithru View Post
    Yes we should, his efforts and voluminous writings were sincere and anyone who has carefully studied the Vedas knows that he is right.
    It is all your assumptions or beliefs. Many people don't agree with this.

    Not yet but I am a follower of Hiranyagarbha Yoga Tradition which our Rishis followed.
    What is "Hiranyagarbha Yoga tradition" ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

  7. #37

    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Dear savithru ji,
    Pramanas are means of knowledge. Amongst the various means of knowledge there is no higher or lower. What is available to one means of knowledge is not available to another.

    For example what is available to my nose is not available for my ears. both present knowledge. Nose is one means of knowledge which provides us with information about smell. The ears provide us with means to sound. Ears and nose are two means of knowledge and have distinct functions. They serve distinct functions.

    Same thing with any two means of knowledge. We cannot say logic is superior to pratyaksha. Pratyaksha works in one domain, logic or anumana works in another domain.

    Shabda pramana in yet another domain : that is why the knowledge it provides is anadhigata .

    -------------------

    Now coming to so called "super natural" : How can you confirm its not a figment of imagination ? Any experience ... how ever exotic you may claim it to be ... can be simulated through neural manipulations. So ... the idea of such experiences being " superior " not well studied and mere imagination.

    Love!
    Silence
    Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by devotee View Post
    Namaste Savithru,



    It is all your assumptions or beliefs. Many people don't agree with this.



    What is "Hiranyagarbha Yoga tradition" ?

    OM
    As Sri Aurobindo says the greatest enemy to Hinduism is none other than ignorant coward Hindus not anyone external to them.

    I am on the path of Hindu revivalism. The Vedic gods are making a come back.

    Hindu revivalism

    Some modern Hindu spiritual thinkers like Shri Aurobindo assign symbolism to the Vedic deities like Savitr. The Vedic deities are not only forces of nature, but also forces that exist within the human intellect and psyche and help the individual in spiritual progress. Shri Aurobindo has enumerated the symbolic significance of the Vedic Gods in his book "The Secret of the Vedas".


    According to Shri Aurobindo, the vedic imagery are deeper than mere imagery. The gods, goddesses and the evil forces mentioned in the Vedas represent various cosmic powers. They play a significant role in the drama of creation, preservation and destruction in the inner world of a human being.


    Once the senses are controlled and the mind is stabilized through slaying of all the dark powers, comes the awakening, the goddess Ushas, who brings along with her Ashvins into the world of inner consciousness. After Ushas appear Aditi, the Primal Sun, the God of Light, first as Savitr, who represents the Divine grace essential for all spiritual success, and then as Mitra, who as the Divine love is considered as a friend of the illumined mind (Indra) and his associates (the other gods). The Sun is of Truth, after which appear Rta, Truth in Action and Rtachit, Truth consciousness.


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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Quote Originally Posted by silence_speaks View Post
    Dear savithru ji,

    Now coming to so called "super natural" : How can you confirm its not a figment of imagination ? Any experience ... how ever exotic you may claim it to be ... can be simulated through neural manipulations. So ... the idea of such experiences being " superior " not well studied and mere imagination.

    Love!
    Silence
    Do you know something? I know science and science doesn't have a scientific definition for consciousness yet. You along with your logic, reason and the scientific method think that YOU ARE GOD without showing any humility to the person who created this universe.

    In Hinduism eight siddhis (Ashta Siddhi) are known:[11]
    • Aṇimā: reducing one's body even to the size of an atom
    • Mahima: expanding one's body to an infinitely large size
    • Garima: becoming infinitely heavy
    • Laghima: becoming almost weightless
    • Prāpti: having unrestricted access to all places
    • Prākāmya: realizing whatever one desires
    • Iṣṭva: possessing absolute lordship
    • Vaśtva: the power to subjugate all[12]
    Bhagavata Purana

    Five siddhis of yoga and meditation

    In the Bhagavata Purana, the five siddhis of yoga and meditation are:
    1. tri-kāla-jñatvam: knowing the past, present and future
    2. advandvam: tolerance of heat, cold and other dualities
    3. para citta ādi abhijñatā: knowing the minds of others and so on
    4. agni arka ambu viṣa ādīnām pratiṣṭambhaḥ: checking the influence of fire, sun, water, poison, and so on
    5. aparājayah: remaining unconquered by others[13]
    Ten secondary siddhis

    In the Bhagavata Purana, Lord Krishna describes the ten secondary siddhis as:
    • anūrmi-mattvam: Being undisturbed by hunger, thirst, and other bodily appetites
    • dūra-śravaṇa: Hearing things far away
    • dūra-darśanam: Seeing things far away
    • manaḥ-javah: Moving the body wherever thought goes (teleportation/astral projection)
    • kāma-rūpam: Assuming any form desired
    • para-kāya praveśanam: Entering the bodies of others
    • sva-chanda mṛtyuh: Dying when one desires
    • devānām saha krīḍā anudarśanam: Witnessing and participating in the pastimes of the gods
    • yathā sańkalpa saḿsiddhiḥ: Perfect accomplishment of one's determination
    • ājñā apratihatā gatiḥ: Orders or commands being unimpeded [14
    Tell your scientific morons to try and simulate this if they can or else please kindly allow us to revive Hinduism so that we can demonstrate these Siddhis confirming the existence of the supernatural. Science is not God and it doesn't know anything.

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    Re: Isha Upanishad refutes Mayavada (Illusionism) by Shankara

    Namaste Savithru,

    You have not replied to this question :

    What is "Hiranyagarbha Yoga tradition" ?

    BTW, can you stop using flaming language as it is prohibited in this forum ?

    OM
    "Om Namo Bhagvate Vaasudevaye"

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