Pranam Bandhu... Note to Mods : My views are from Advaitian Vaishnawism. I hope it'll be fine to post my views. Because I'm too Vaishnawa.
Originally Posted by
brahma jijnasa
Namaste
Many times so far I've seen that people do not want to accept the literal statement handed down by the verse because it does not fit their philosophy. That's what you're doing right now.
As far as your translations are concerned, you're trying to defend your philosophy which I think is contradicting with Bhagavata Purana.
Yes, jiva really is a part of Brahman (Lord Krishna), and it is a very small part of Brahman, atomic in size, and is Brahman but it is atomic in size.
Yes, a part of the infinite is possible, because it is exactly what says Bhagavad gita 15.7 (
http://vedabase.net/bg/15/7/en) :
"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts."
I've already told you that there's difference between Jiva and Atma. Jiva is the mixture of mind, intellect and prana and as these material things are atomic in size, jiva is called as amsha. It is nowhere said that Atma is amsha. Scriptures state that jiva is amsha but Jiva's original self atma is Brahman alone. " Aham brahmasmi " " Tat twam asi" " Atmaiva idam sarvam " Such thousands of shruti and smruti shlokas are standing to posit the real self of jiva is Brahman.
Of course Lord Krishna is Atma of all the Jivas, but He is the other Atma called Paramatma (Supersoul). In every living being there are two souls (two
atmas):
1) individual soul called jiva or jiva-atma (jiva soul)
and also
2) the Lord in the form of the Supersoul called Paramatma
First time I've seen such belief - Two souls in one Body. Better you should give clear support from Bhagavata Purana. But please don't give that two birds analogy. Apart from this if you've anything you can post your references here. I'd like to know them.
I really do not know what you think is clear, but I just see the confusion in your viewpoint.
Jiva soul is eternal part of Brahman and thus is real as much as Brahman is real. So jiva is not false self, but is eternal and real part of Brahman (Lord Krishna).
Jiva is real self, and will never cease to exist because it is eternal self (
sanātanaḥ -- "eternal", Bhagavad gita 15.7).
This idea of yours "individual existence of atma/Barhman caused by mind, intellect and prana." is not true!
Jiva is false self, this is supported by many shlokas of Bhagavata Purana and yes if you have read any unbiased non-sectarian Bhagavata Purana. Atma or Barhman is called as Jiva when he appears in Mind, intellect and prana which is collectively called as Suksha Sharira. From this Suksha sharira, Sthula sharira gets formed.
Read what is Jiva, the definations of Jiva based on Bhagavata Purana:
“dehendriya pranamayo…..adhavati kalatantrah “ (BP 11.28.16)
Meaning:
The spirit hidden behind the body, the senses, the vital airs and the mind and identifying itself with them is called the Jeeva. The subtle body constituted of the Gunas and karmas is its material manifestation and is variously known as the Sootrama or the Mahat-Tattwa and controlled by God in the form of the Time-spirit) it revolves in Sansara. (World)
“satwam rajastam……tayoho param yat “(BP 11.3.37)
Meaning:
That which was one before creation became known as Pradhana (or Prakriti) of triple nature, consisting of Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Then by its active power it became as the Sutratma and by its power of understanding it became known as Mahat Principle. Again as a condition investing the Jeeva or individual soul, it became known as Ahankara (the ego). The incomprehensible Brahman alone shines as deities presiding over the senses and their objects and the pain pleasure experience. The effect and the cause – are all Brahman only, because it is cause of both.
“avam vimrushya….makhilasanshayadhim “ (BP 11.13.23)
Meaning: You should think like this and arrive at the conclusion about the nature of the self that the three states of mind born out of three Gunas are falsely superimposed on Me as the Jeeva, by my delusive Power (Maya) and should cut at the root of egoism, the basis of all doubts, with the sword of Wisdom fortified by reasoning, the precepts of saints and the texts of Shruti
(Upanishads), and join in the Unity with Me seated in your heart.
See, how many times I have to quote one and the same verse again and again (
jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ, Bhagavad gita 15.7), and none of this is clear to you.
I've already told you why only Jiva is called as Amsha and why not Atma.
There is no error here. This is just one type of meditation. It says "You should
always meditate like this".
There are many types of meditation recommended in the scriptures.
Clearly speaking ,this quote seems childish which is completely illogical and I think you just want to defend and for that you want to say something even if it is absurd. So I wouldn't comment on this. .
"When a pot is broken, the portion of sky within the pot remains as the element sky, just as before. In the same way, when the gross and subtle bodies die, the living entity within resumes his spiritual identity."
Again trying to defend the philosophy by intentionally creating non-existent confusions . All know BBT translation is the translation done by Gaudiya Vaishnawism. I've personally studied their translations but honestly didn't find them authentic and honest. The unbiased translation I've given:
घटे भिन्ने घटाकाश आकाशः स्याद् यथा पुरा ।
एवं देहे मृते जीवो ब्रह्म सम्पद्यते पुनः ॥ 12.5.५ ॥
: Even as the appeared different space enclosed in the pot becomes complete Akasha after breaking of that pot, in the same way, when subtle body dies, jeeva becomes Brahman again [ Here "again" implies that he was already Brahman. His jivahood was because of maya only but not in the real sense. This concept is explained by Adi shankara in his upanishada Bhashya]
In that verse, There's no sanskrit word equivalent to "Spiritual Identity". There's Brahman word - Jiva becomes Brahman is the meaning of जीवो ब्रह्म सम्पद्यते पुनः . By seeing this, you are trying badly to defend. I said badly because the example of becoming of individual sky into complete sky is totally irrelevant to the "getting spiritual identity"
I guess even a school kid too can understand the meaning of that. In that verse, the example of pot is used to clarify how jiva(individual false self) becomes Brahman( complete true infinite self).
In that verse,
घटाकाश is equivalent to जीवो ( enclosed space within pot mean enclosed jiva within the pot of subtle body ie mind, intellect and prana)
आकाशः is equivalent to ब्रह्म ( The complete space which is already covering in the pot. When the pot gets broken means when the body dies, the appeared space becomes complete space means the appeared jiva becomes complete Brahman. Punah-Again is mentioned to show that as the individual sky seems seperate from Brahman but in reality it is complete sky only. That individual sky was already complete akasha, in the same way jiva was already brahman. The individuality of brahman appears due to maya. Because knowledge and ignorance have appearance due to the Maya. But Atma is always aloof from Bondage and Moksha. But Ignorant persons impose the dirt of the sky to the Pure sky. Because They're completely unaware of what is Atma. )
This verse just speaks that the soul attains liberation (mukti) when is released from the subtle material body (mind, intelligence, false ego, material senses and prana),
And besides the verse uses additional example of pot and sky to show how jiva becomes Brahma
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